I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. So if my pill hit my target in a less than optimal body section with ball ammo, Ill opt for the bigger ball every time. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. Thats my two cents for what its worth. A 7.6225 is venerated as so amazing by PPsh humpers. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. Yes I can only get 2 shots off accurately in the same time as 4 with a 9 but again 2 usually does it. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. Give me a 45 any day! A tool yes but not a valid substitute. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? Now that has some stopping power and even at 600 yards. It's the most comprehensive and trusted online destination for law enforcement agencies and police departments worldwide. Slow him down, double up, spin/alter his track-anything to allow you to get that second shot and the empty the clip. That the .45ACP slows down so much that its penetration is less effective than a 9mm? Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. Once you run out of rounds, youre done. Maybe if you were trying to make 100+ yard shot thatd make a little difference. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. Any gun between 9 mil and .45 caliber is fine if you can conceal it, and employ it quickly and with reasonable accuracy. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. .45 ACP vs 9mm: Which Is Better? - Gun Digest Indeed, if 9mm used the same grain of bullet, the ft/lb and velocities are near-identical. If you use .22 mag, muzzle flash is pronounced and may have some fear factor with its use. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. To each their own. Think the title of this article is misleading. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. So anyone reading this, you should check this gun out. Take this for what its worth. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. Hydrostatic shock While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. You hit it dead on its not the cal thats most important its what you can do with it. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. They should have several different handguns depending on the shoot I myself at 6 to 200 pounds and have a large chance by far the best pistol Ive ever shot is the 1911. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. With the 45 2 at most. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. to stop the threat. After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. All animals died pretty much on location. The FBI cant make up its mind and bounces back and forth. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. That much is true. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. And speed kills barriers. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. I like how the author notes that the accuracy analogy is nonsense, thats true. When Does a .380 Beat But you still want the best caliber possible, because while people are disposed to fall down when shot, not every target does. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. Owned a model 29 .357 According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. Ive come to a conclusion that many people lean towards the 9 mm including the military because its easier to control and thus are more accurate, especially for a teenager fresh out of high school. #firearmtraining. Ret. One other thing that is interesting to note, during a military engagement in which soldiers were issued .38-caliber sidearms, they found that the bullets were ineffective against the natives who were fond of using drugs before engaging in combat, and thus were numbed to the impacts of the bullets. 45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body on jun 11, 2022 on jun 11, 2022 The impact of the injury would depend on where the bullet went besides your stomach. 9mm will not drop a target unless you hit the CNS.a buddy of mine took a 9mm straight through the head through his eyeball from about 20 yards away. The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. the difference between a 45 and a 9 millimeter and a couple milliseconds of reaction time, it really depends on the situation and again, personal preference. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? You can either hit a target or not that simple. Another deputy acquired a .45 and was having trouble being able to qualify with it. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. Rounds that do not hit the intended target are obviously more dangerous to bystanders than a round that hits the target. A 9mm round fired at close range to the skull with the correct ammunition will be fatal nearly all the time. The 9mm isnt a garbage round but feeling better with these 230 grain Winchester Rangers loaded on my side. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. I totally agree about shot placement. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. One thing to note is that for more most applications the military is restricted to FMJ loads. I dont have the time to read it. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. Its all about follow up shots. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. The 45 acp caused significant damage to the human body. I can not remember a single specific instance of someone shot with JHP, where I knew for a fact at the time what I was looking at. I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. Many do not discover the gun thats right for them as easily as you have (if they ever do)! Meaning the shooter, where a second shot will go off up in the air. But a high-muzzle weapon shatters that bone into hundreds of microscopic pieces, in a way that cannot be repaired. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. We enjoy our 2nd amendment and want it protected and were prepared to give our life to defend our country. A lot. .4570, .454 Casull and .460 Super Mag are all tremendously powerful. Lumpy Rutherford's Instagram, Twitter & Facebook on IDCrawl Skorpion Ammo Type: 9 mm. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. And I can certainly understand WHY you would be led to thinking that switching to the Glock 21 would improve your chances of getting a stop. The smaller size of the 9mm also allows for more rounds per magazine, as well as lighter weapons. SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! WebHuman Body 101 | National Geographic National Geographic 21.2M subscribers Subscribe 52K 3.3M views 5 years ago How does the human body work? But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. Many factors, including the moisture content, knot content, tree age and even the separation of the boards, can give rise to highly variable results. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. Both calibers have been proven to be effectively lethal.. Ive usually have to chase guys shot with 9mm. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. So banter on gentlemen. For the better part of a decade, working on the streets in 2 of the 4 most dangerous neighborhoods in these United States, (per semi-annual FBI Violent Crime statistics) shot distance and circumstance can NOT be accurately anticipated. Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? My feeling is that the gun for you will be as individual as you are. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. So In a effort to Really lets cut to the chase. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? To the extent the wound components cause or increase the effects of these two mechanisms, the likelihood of incapacitation increases. The programs, policies, and people driving positive change in Americas gun violence problem. With civilians Mosher shootings occur within 7 yards thats 21 feet are closer usually closer. In the words of Dr. Peter Rhee, a leading trauma surgeon and a retired Navy captain with 24-years of service, talking about all handgun wounds including .45 ACP and 9mm, he said, A Handgun wound is simply a stabbing with a bullet. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. In the last 30 years, the FBI has moved from .38/.357 caliber revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. F=MA always applies to the known laws of physics. and I guess $$.. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. Request a quote for the most accurate & reliable non-lethal training, A shootout that killed multiple FBI agents underscores the need for cops to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. thanks for your time, greg. The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? I thought I would never own a 9 mm. We were trained with a .45, to protect the patient. Possible off hand 200. It is also a logistics factor 45 is just one more different ammo to resupply. So any caliber is better than none. Since 1959 we have striven as a family-owned business to build a gun shop that is here to grow with your family. I also could not afford the astronomical price (astronomical in my current budget) shops are now asking for a 4 inch Ruger Redhawk. I think the armchair warriors need to think about how a pistol is barely effective in military situations. That problem is solved by making more of a bullets surface area actually come in contact with its target. For the spray and pray that they teach nowadays the high cap 9mm is good. With practice almost anything is possible. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. I shot Master for a while. A .223 is just 55 grains. Another may be more easily rattled, where a head shot is possible but still iffy. But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. You probably wont feel as much pain in your hands or joints when the rounds go off as when youre practicing on the range. Testing shows terminal ballistics of modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round. Anyone actually seen the effect of .45 jhp? | 1911Forum A pistol just sucks in that situation. .45 Actually killed to individual who I shot vs the others who all but one lived. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. The results may surprise many as it did myself. The beautiful country in south east Asia. The objective of this study was to construct a Love reading your stuff. Look at the Walter Scott shooting. The Ruger SR1911 is comfortable for some reason and I have considered getting one from time to time. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. I thought a 55 115lb girl with small hands would want a .380, so I was surprise when she chose a Walther PPS in 9mm. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. Of course there are but in general the .45 with its bigger slower round is the better choice for knockdown power. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. If you know firearms and know how to properly use them than the caliber shouldnt matter. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. They ability to kill. In any event, I used that data when shopping for a lighter and more easily concealed EDC than my .357 magnum revolver and hi-cap .45 ACP. The Krag was a failure for two reasons. 9mm. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. I Have hair and an angular face. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. When you consider that almost all wounds from pistol caliber firearms were inflicted with SMGs, and when you consider that the most common German 9mm round issued during the war used a 90gr steel-core bullet loaded to do over 1400 ft/sec from pistol length barrels and 1800+ out of SMGs, and you compare this to the lumbering 230gr .45 caliber bullet that had less than half that velocity, it seems pretty plausible. The money has to come from somewhere. Human Body Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. But why not? But thats me. That changed for me Dec of 2017. Im 73 yoa. I just got a glock30SF and im thinking of adding her to the g27 for my CC permit. The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. The .50 I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. Math is absolute and backs what Ive stated. Black Talon Bob. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. damage All rights reserved. Dr. Peter Rhee is a trauma surgeon who operated on victims of the 2011 shooting at a political event in Tucson, Arizona, in which six people were killed and 13 wounded in a hail of 9mm bullets. When the. Not aim shoot. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! Your skull is very thick in places (base of the skull) and some bullets arent designed for that kind of penetration. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. Richard, I guess I have little feminine hands as I prefer to carry my 9mm for self-defense and on duty. Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. To my way of thinking, its great as a CC gun, or that in the boot back-up. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. Also we are talking pistols. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. I have the perfect picture for this: Those pins stayed in place for 18 months while the bone knit. It is a poor idea to keep your finger inside the A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. 10mm. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not penetrate the outside skin of a car body. I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. It did when it came to FMJ bullets. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. Garand Thumb 2.84M subscribers 4.2M views 1 year ago 9mm vs 45 ACP, the age old debate and the one that
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